Start-Up To Unicorn: How To Use Data To Scale Your Sales Team

Greg Reffner: [00:00:00] Name. Everybody, welcome to the abstract podcast. My name is Greg Rapper and founder of Abstract. Today we have Jeremy Donovan, SVP of Revenue Strategy at Sales Loft. Jeremy, please say Hi Sir.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:00:14] Hey, Greg. Hey, Claire. Thanks for having me on.

Greg Reffner: [00:00:17] Yeah, I’m super excited. Been a huge fan of all the content you’ve been putting out over the past couple of years. Really exciting time to be in the kind of the revenue strategy, revenue operation world and a lot of what you’re putting out there, I think is is thought provoking and insightful for four companies looking to really formalize their revenue and go to market strategy. So some of the things that we’re going to dive into today, I think, are really relevant and timely to give our listeners a little bit of a background in some foundation for your insights and maybe some of your thoughts around things. I want to start with kind of your background. So you started at Gartner and then AMA GLG CB Insights, looking back at kind of the stepping stones of your career and a lot of ways I feel like laid the foundation for what you do at sales loft today. Have you ever kind of looking back hindsight and gone like, OK, all these pieces lined up? And do you ever lean on any of those prior experiences to drive some of your decisions at sales loft?

Jeremey Donovan: [00:01:20] Yeah, for sure. The piece is line up and for sure they are informing what I do today. I now have forgotten whether it was intentional or not intentional. So I just say it was. It was not intentional, but my career strategy. I generally I think there are careers that are very linear, right? You’re an SDR or you’re an E, you’re a manager. You work your way up to CRO. Yeah, I then this path that I took is I refer to it as add a word, drop a word. So I actually started in the semiconductor company called Xilinx, and I was a semiconductor engineer. And then I dropped that when I joined Gartner. And I one word the analyst, the engineer part, it became a semiconductor analyst. And then throughout my career, I was sort of adding words and dropping words as I, you know, picked up ultimately product development, product management, product marketing, corporate marketing that into sales. I was of zero briefly and then I found that I loved sales revenue operations. So there it was. There was a method to the madness. But again, I can’t tell you whether that was intentional or not. I feel like it was intentional. And then in terms of how those things inform what I do today, I was an engineer, obviously way way back when. And I’ve generally pursued things where I could apply a, you know, fact based quantitative, analytical and consultative bent to domains that didn’t have those as characteristics.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:02:47] So for me, that was true of marketing many years ago, which is what drew me into marketing. And then, you know, sales was more art than science for for for a long time. And and what drew me into sales was there still problems to be solved? But I find intellectually very, very interesting. If I were to do like I used to think of, I had one more, one more switch in me. Although I don’t think I have that switch in me anymore is to go into H.R. because there there’s another area where it was more art than science. But I think that one’s becoming more science too. And that was really pioneered probably by many people. But I credit Laszlo Bock, who was the head of HR. He was at McKinsey and then head of HR at Google, and he really brought sort of scientific processes and consultative processes into the HR world. I’m sure there were others before him that I’m not getting appropriate credit to, but anyway, that that long winded answer. But yes, method to the madness. And yes, I do use like I still code, I still use statistics, all those things. I still apply to my job.

Greg Reffner: [00:03:56] I love that as you were talking about that, it reminds me of Steve Jobs Stanford commencement speech where he talks about kind of the breadcrumbs. And looking back, kind of all the pieces are kind of tied together in one way or another. So you’re kind of just analysis of your history really reminded me of that, that speech he gave. And it sounds like you ultimately came to the end for that.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:04:18] I’m flattered no one has ever compared me to to Steve Jobs. I did. I did love that speech. I’m a big reader and we can talk a lot about books, probably as well. And the jobs bio is definitely one of my favorite nonfiction books of all time. I’m actually reading. I didn’t know there was one, but there’s a Tim Cook bio right now floating around, so that’s the book I’m at. That’s I’ve read fiction and non-fiction simultaneously, but that’s the fiction the nonfiction book I’m reading like as we speak. It’s not as good as the jobs bio. It’s it’s a good overview of Apple. But I want more about Tim Cook. Like it’s not. It’s not giving me enough about Tim Cook, and that’s what I’m after.

Greg Reffner: [00:04:54] Do you ever we’re going to go off on a tangent here, just a pure curiosity. You ever kind of wonder like this myth of Steve Jobs the. Persona, the stigma. Do you wonder if, like people would be as intrigued by who he was and who he like the way his brain worked if he was still alive today?

Jeremey Donovan: [00:05:14] I, I, I do think so. And I say that because people were intrigued before, you know, like, let’s let’s let’s abstract that to people who who are alive. Bill Gates, right? Like, I think there’s still a fascination about Bill Gates, not just who he is today, but who he I’m actually really fascinated by who Bill Gates was when he was at Microsoft, which I don’t think like he was. He was well known to be very intense. Not in the Steve Jobs way, but I don’t think there’s enough about him. When he was at Microsoft, and then obviously, people are intensely fascinated by Elon Musk, right? Yeah. So I would just draw a parallel between jobs and Musk, perhaps as as like to very unusual people that. And I think we’re just drawn to like, what’s the personality of the wealthiest person on the planet? You know, Jeff Bezos, probably the same thing applies.

Greg Reffner: [00:06:08] That’s true. Yeah, that’s a valid point. Well, on that note, let’s let’s get back on topic. So about a month ago, five weeks ago, you ran a poll on LinkedIn, and this is really going to kind of serve the foundation for our conversation. It had just under three thousand five hundred votes, and it was what is the number one reason sales reps, new sales reps hit quota reps. Skill and ability was number one, with thirty two percent training and enablement ranked 30 percent territory rank twenty four percent. Well, these results surprising to you

Jeremey Donovan: [00:06:38] A little a little surprising because I actually would have thought territory that the territories that they were assigned to would have been would have been number one. And I say that also from some degree of experiences, as I’ve gone into different companies and worked in and revenue strategy and ops. It’s like the first thing I look at is I’m looking at attainment rep performance and I slice and dice that by were they an internal promotion or were they hired from the outside? When did they join? And what I’ve seen in a lot of early stage companies is you sort of in the first wave, you hire some very early right like seed stage, you hire a bunch of people and you just say, go right, like grab what you can as fast as you can. And that’s that’s the right thing to do. You don’t need to impose a lot of discipline and typically in those early stages unless you’re you have a really, really hyper targeted like enterprise solution that only has 20 customers on the planet, right? I mean, those things exist. But but it’s generally not, not the norm. And then the next stage is, OK, we’ve hired a bunch of people.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:07:38] We’re going to cap the territory. You can hold one hundred and you lose an account if you are not sufficiently active. However, that’s defined. And that’s often the stage where I have come into companies and and kind of one of the reasons people I get hired is something that’s not working. They don’t know why, but something’s not working. And very, very often it’s like a play that I would run almost everywhere I’ve gone, which is to to build a a true equal potential territory model and assign accounts out to ease that they’re not picking them for themselves anymore. So yeah, with respect to that poll, I was I was a bit a bit surprised. I mean, if you think about right, sort of the behavioral reason why the answer was rep skill and ability. Of course, reps are answering and they don’t want they want to believe it’s it’s that they that they have control over over their attainment through skill and ability. And I’m not denying the skill and ability is important. I just think territory is is probably of equal importance.

Greg Reffner: [00:08:44] Yeah, I mean, you could argue that if you’re getting, let’s say, Northern California versus maybe South Dakota, yeah. And you’re in B to B software sales, there’s a there’s some level of expectation of success that’s just inherent in your territory if you’re given one area as opposed to a different one, for sure.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:09:09] And like you solve that by right, you’re not. If you have three reps, right, let’s say you had just three reps, you’re not going to give one East Coast, one central and one west. That’s madness. You probably if you were in enterprise or if you were in SAS, you might stick all three of them in the West Coast, right? Yeah. And you sort of do that for a while and then you put a few on the East Coast and then eventually you’ll put one four four, you know, the entire swath of the Midwest of the of the U.S., right? So you build that up. And that’s what I’m that’s what I’m getting at is like equal potential territories. We have an internal model that we developed that that that determines for every single account. What do we think the you know, in the economics world expectation value of that account is and it’s three things multiplied together. It’s the probability that we will get an up in that account based on firmer graphics based on first and third party intent based on history that we’ve had with the contacts at that particular account. So that probability will get an up. That’s the most sophisticated factor. And then we multiply that times are expected win rate if we have an up and then what our our average contract value is if we win. So from that, you get an expectation value and then you can basically add those together to build territories for people that are, as I said, equal potential because, you know, that potential should exceed their, you know, should equal or exceed their quota. Otherwise you got a problem. Yeah, they’re not. They’re. Couldn’t meet their quota.

Greg Reffner: [00:10:47] I love how sophisticated that is, and so kind of analyzing your answer. It definitely makes sense why you would have thought territory would have been number one based upon the analysis and the time and attention sales Loftus placed into kind of formulating this model around building territories and how I would I would assume it’s a relatively predictable model that you guys have put together where there’s a certain level of expected success with that model, right?

Jeremey Donovan: [00:11:19] It is. Yeah, I you know, there’s a few things I track on this one is is my goal. Our goal is to have two thirds of, you know, sort of conventional metric, but two thirds of reps should meet or exceed quota during the year. And there is more math behind why that two thirds is a magic number. It’s because of that happens then and because of the people who exceed you will meet or exceed your total revenue goal for the company. Yeah, so so like, that’s another thing I’m we’re sort of tracking. And then with respect to predictability, absolutely. You know, our our goal is the conventional industry one, although with a with a finer point on it, which is when we forecast we’re trying to make sure that we’re within plus or minus five percent of the final number based on the number we call on day 15 of the quarter. And it’s day 15 because we do two weeks of Cuba’s internal Cuba’s to clean up, basically clean up the the

Greg Reffner: [00:12:20] Ops clean up pipeline,

Jeremey Donovan: [00:12:22] Clean the pipeline. And then so we look at day 15, we look at day 90 and we, you know, we expect to be within plus or minus five percent and we’re routinely within plus or minus three percent. So like it is the sophistication of the territory model, it’s also the sophistication, obviously of our of our approach to forecasting.

Greg Reffner: [00:12:39] I love that. I’m sure we could spend all day on that topic alone, and that’s awesome. So I mean, plus or minus three percent. And you call that number 15 days into a the

Jeremey Donovan: [00:12:54] Quarter, the quarter.

Greg Reffner: [00:12:56] Yeah, that’s phenomenal. And I mean, there’s a proof’s in the pudding why Vista just took a majority stake in sales, because those numbers are there right in numbers don’t lie. So that’s awesome. Well, let’s back it up a little bit, and let’s get into kind of the number one answer rep skill and ability. When I think of skill and ability, I think of some things that are either. Innately, you’re born with. Whether that be athletic ability, a certain level of intelligence skill is something that can be crafted over time. It’s something that’s practiced and practiced and practiced. And so I was I was kind of puzzled with this because I was thinking about it. And if we just assume, for argument’s sake, that skill and ability is something that is not something that’s picked up in one day, new reps need to have success earlier rather than later. Training takes time. New reps don’t have time. There seems to be a disconnect there. Am I overthinking that too much?

Jeremey Donovan: [00:14:02] Um, I would quibble a little bit with how much you’re born with, I don’t know that I don’t think you’re born with that much, but that’s a whole separate, separate thing. But I to your to your point about like, yeah, when reps are higher, they are expected to hit the ground running. I do feel that ramp times are unrealistic for almost every position in sales from SDR all the way through enterprise sales executive. I think the larger enterprise like big enterprise companies Oracle, SAP, Microsoft, Salesforce, I actually think they’re relatively realistic about ramp times because I think they’ve run the data like, I know if you get hired at Oracle, it is, you know, like you’re almost an an apprentice program for a year or two. And oftentimes, right during that time, a lot of you’re not on a 50 50 comp plan that that goes live and 90 days. Yeah, it’s not. They know it’s not. It’s not realistic. You often have a a non recoverable draw for, you know, 12, at least 12 months, if not, if not more. So I do think there’s an unrealistic, unrealistic ramp time. And then with respect to, yeah, skill building, this is, you know, one thing I do a lot of is I pull profiles of people hundreds, if not thousands of people off of LinkedIn. And then I’ll crunch the data. Sometimes myself or I’ll ship it off for crunching to Upwork contractors. And I try to figure out, like, is there any bio data that’s predictive of whether or not somebody will be successful in a role? So this is what the last one I did was actually enterprise 80s and I had this I had. Some hypotheses that were confirmed, some that I was surprised that were not correct.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:15:52] So the two that I felt strongly about that I was wrong about is I felt like you should only hire enterprise reps who had been at least two years of tenure in their immediate prior role. I thought that was really important as as like past success, predicting future success. And that one, at least in the pretty decent amount. I think I pulled like 500 profiles and I run the stats on it. That one’s still not statistically significantly different. So that was a shock to me. And and it just changed my mind, you know, about like how I would hire people. So so that in a way that kind of gets it. Your thing about skill is like. They can attain, you know, they do come in with skill, even if they have less less tenure and they can learn and the things they need to learn. Look, if you think about an enterprise rap like the things they need to learn is they need to actually learn. I think at least three big things. Obviously the product. Yeah. But you know, almost as important is they also need to learn how to they’re managing a team, right? Like they need to bring it. They need to learn who are the right people on their team to assemble, to do the deal, especially in an enterprise deal. Um, and then the the third thing is. Is like all the logistics and processes for getting deals done in their organization, right, like how to get through CPK and all that, all that sort of thing, I guess if you threw a four thing and I talked about the product already. So yeah, so yeah, that’s probably good.

Greg Reffner: [00:17:30] That’s fair. So you mentioned one of the things kind of your expectation around previous success being an indicator of future success. What was the other surprise?

Jeremey Donovan: [00:17:39] The other one was related. It was actually that I thought if they if they had evidence in their immediate prior job of Presidents Club or winner’s circle or whatever people call it, that that would also be predictive. And that was not statistically predictive of success. The the biggest thing that was those are two things that weren’t the biggest thing that was predictive of success is simply that they were promoted internally from, you know, like an SMB rep into into an enterprise rep. And we’ve seen, you know, I’ve seen that everywhere I’ve been. I see it at sales loft. It’s not that we don’t have people come in from the outside. You’re talking about, you know, I forget the exact numbers, but let’s say forty five percent success rate versus a fifty five or a 40 versus 60. So it’s not that people who come in from the outside are not as are not sick, can’t can’t be successful. It’s that, let’s say four out of 10 of them are versus six out of 10 internal promotions. So that’s what when know if you just a small number of reps? Whatever like may not make a big difference, but if you’re hiring, you know, tens, if not hundreds of or even thousands in the case of large enterprises of reps. That’s a big performance.

Greg Reffner: [00:18:53] It’s a huge 10 percent of $100 million is 10 million dollars.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:18:56] Yeah, yeah. So so like then you want to then you actually want to make sure that you’ve got that internal promotion engine like really, really finely tuned in your capacity planning in a very sophisticated way.

Greg Reffner: [00:19:08] It’s interesting. So my my analysis of what makes a rep successful is not nearly as sophisticated as yours is. I kind of have some sticky notes written down on my desk, but ultimately I have one of the things that I’ve kind of thought through my career is success of it at an SDR level. Like in order to be successful as an SDR like, you had to have some level of previous success in some type of SDR role. And I’ve kind of fought that because every successful xDrive known their background came from knocking on doors like house to house knives, selling internet, selling, you know, basically building up confidence. And it’s like lack, like suppressing fear of rejection. And I found that that was a very good indicator of early success at like an SDR level.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:20:01] So I studied that one, too, OK with like two thousand. I know that one was 2000 profiles we looked at, and the number one profile for hiring an SDR is actually someone who spent two years at at a recruiting agency that’s number one most successful profile. And you’re spot on. Prior stars have a much, much, much lower success rate as as stars. There’s a few other profiles that are not successful. You know, again, some are, but are statistically less successful when they get to to SDR. That, to me, is the killer is the killer profile.

Greg Reffner: [00:20:40] Yeah. Recruiters, I mean, that’s another job where you just you face rejection ninety nine percent of the time and you just have to learn to pick up the phone and keep going.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:20:49] Yeah. Oracle, Oracle. I’ve talked about Oracle a couple of times. Not that they’re like the world’s greatest company, right? Although they have survived the on prem to cloud, it’s rocky, but they’ve survived that transition. But but the reason I cite them is I had the great privilege to sit in a sort of more intimate setting with their former CEO, who passed shortly after that Mark Hurd. And he was describing their approach to hiring and like they had gone through all this data. And one thing that he revealed that I have not tested, but again, I sort of trust the data from them on. This is when they looked at people’s college backgrounds because especially for new college hires, right? Because they do a lot of that because there they are doing that progressive thing. What was it wasn’t like that they were an athlete or they were this or they were that what they found was people who had a diversity of extracurricular activities. So like if you were, you know, you played volleyball and you were in in the a cappella group, right? Like, if you had this diverse set of experiences, then then those people, you know, proved to be more successful. I think, right, like why is that? I think it’s probably a proxy for curiosity. It’s probably a proxy for conscientiousness, might be a proxy for IQ. And all the academic studies that are on job performance, whether it’s sales or elsewhere, say that it’s basically three things it’s IQ conscientiousness and job skill. So, you know, that’s all those are the things to test.

Greg Reffner: [00:22:25] So it’s so fascinating that you said curiosity was the first thing that you listed because that’s immediately where my mind went, where if you’re dabbling or kind of exposing yourself to different things, it’s because you’re naturally curious about the world around you. And I think of Mark Roberts’s book that he wrote, was it called

Jeremey Donovan: [00:22:48] A sales machine or something with machine? And yeah, sales acceleration for Excel?

Greg Reffner: [00:22:53] Yep. And so he listed as coach ability and like a natural curiosity is, I think, the top two traits of successful sales reps. And so I think that again, like Oracle sees it and I love the parallel you drew there with the natural curiosity, exposing yourself to different things. I got kicked out of college and I had no extracurricular activities, so I would have been an outlier in that study.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:23:19] And there are right is that the point is, you know, often what we’re talking about is like again, 40 percent success versus 60 percent success. So can you find people who didn’t go to college who were enormously successful? Absolutely. Can you find people who are, you know, who quit college and were enormously successful? Absolutely. The point is large numbers like if you look whatever at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, people when you’re talking about millions of people write like, you’re better off going going to college, they’re not going to college. You’re better off getting a grad degree than not getting a grad degree like education is correlated with, you know, with success, but not once you get into, you know, the law of small numbers, right? That’s different. And then you can put asterisks on things like, you know. But both Bill, I think Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of Harvard, but it’s hard like the hard part is getting in right. Yeah, it’s not to say that completing is not important also, but but right as is, these are people with core intelligence to begin with. I did want to make a quick comment on like because you mentioned sort of been born with. I do think a lot about there’s all these. There’s I think about seven dimensions of success, but let’s just take financial success for a second. I do think so much of it is is like three things. It’s it is yes, hard work. Yes, things you know, that you were that you were given. And I’ll come back to that. And then the third one is luck. You know, it is. All three have to play. I think people often who are, quote unquote successful think it was like all them, and they fail to recognize how much circumstances played either luck or like. You know. It. Or gender, ethnicity, right? Economic birth, all these things that you have no control over, you have no control over.

Greg Reffner: [00:25:31] Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting. Jordan Peterson. He’s a psychologist. Psychologist. I think he is. Yeah, and he talks about one of his podcasts. He talks about how everybody in Silicon Valley thinks that they’re just this amazing person, self-made. And he kind of dives into he’s like, Yes, maybe you worked hard, but you’re also surrounded by amazingly successful people in an environment that breeds success in a like. And there’s just so many other things outside of what you can control that ultimately have a factor in your success. And I think it’s always interesting that because yes, you need to work hard, but you also need a tremendous amount of luck along the way and things have to go right for sure.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:26:18] Yeah. Like, I don’t miss the fact that I’m a six foot five Caucasian, you know, whose mom was a teacher. And, you know, like all these things that that I was gifted?

Greg Reffner: [00:26:29] Yes, in birth. Yep. Yeah. Sure. And it’s a gift I think is the appropriate word to use there because it’s something that we should be thankful for. So on that note, let’s let’s kind of polish this up with a couple of things. So we’ve kind of hit on like ramp time. Jeremy and I 1000 percent agree. I think RAM time is just so it just sets people up for success and places unnecessary pressure on a situation that’s already kind of stressful. And so when I think back to my time as an SDR, as an account executive to my colleagues that have gone through this process, so much of sales, training and onboarding is kind of rinse and repeat. It’s like the same bad habits over and over and over again. And so without giving away any kind of secret sauce, what does sales life do differently to to set reps up for success throughout onboarding through training? And and really make sure that like two thirds of your reps are hitting their quota along with certain reps over exceeding their quota? Because industry stats put it, less than 50 percent of reps are hitting their quota. So what do you guys do differently?

Jeremey Donovan: [00:27:42] I would love to claim that we do something radically differently than the rest of the sass industry, but we, you know, like we really don’t. I mean, I think it it it comes down to right, as is like this maniacal attention to hiring for for sure, both in the selection of people and attention to diversity and the way that the the very hyper like even for us when I joined four years ago, like even for a small company, we were so hyper structured in the in the interviewing process. So I think of it as selection as opposed to interviewing. It’s just a subtlety in terminology, but I think it’s an important terminology that we’re selecting people for the company and we reject. I think one time we had, I saw some stat that like it was harder to get a job at sales law than it was to get into Harvard. So we we reject, you know, so many candidates. So that’s one piece. And then once they get once they get on board, I mean, again, sort of the circumstance matters, right? Is, is the product? You know, I was a customer for years before I joined. And so like, it’s not no product sells itself. Maybe, you know, maybe Zoom during during the pandemic itself. But but few products sell themselves. But, you know, solid product and and then like we have over invested throughout. I’m not I don’t run enablement or nor have I run enablement sales a lot.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:29:19] But we have over invested in enablement throughout, throughout our existence because we just believe in it. So there’s there’s a ton of of like attention given to selling skills. But again, I think that’s true of other SaaS companies roleplaying learning the product, learning the people and like how deals get done. We invest a ton in sales tech, as you’d imagine, like, we have so many tools for people to use and you know, those things are hopefully additive additive to them. Yeah. You know, I’m trying to channel like if Kyle, our CEO, we’re answering this question. I think that his answer would actually be the culture of the company that, you know, if you if you hire people and you create an environment of. Of collegiality, of warmth, he would use the word love. Although you know that I sometimes go back and forth on whether that that is a little Silicon Valley, the TV show, yeah, or not. Or Silicon Valley, certainly. But anyway, I mean, I do think that what is it happy employees make for happy customers? Yeah, I like if they’re if there’s a secret, that’s probably it. And it’s really, you know, I’m 48. I haven’t worked at a ton of companies in my life, but I’ve worked enough. And this is a truly special, truly, truly special place. That’s awesome. Well, I think the best place I’ve ever worked.

Greg Reffner: [00:30:55] Peter Schultz said hire for character, train for skill, right? And if you hire the right character, you hire the right attitude. The rest kind of takes care of itself in a lot of ways, and people

Jeremey Donovan: [00:31:06] Actually get that. I’ll say, like, you mostly get that right. Another thing from experience to more things is like why? Why is our why is our culture distinct? And the thing I learned and I only learned in at sales loft. It’s obvious, in hindsight, is that culture comes from the top. So every company basically has the same core values. They just have different wording. Yeah. What is different about sales? Loft is Kyle and Rob are our co-founders. Like Walk the walk. Every day on those on those values, and they will they hold themselves publicly accountable if they deviate. And that’s something I’ve never, I’ve never, ever seen before. So I think there was a second one, but I’m having a senior senior moment right now. But that like to me, it may come back to me in our recording time or not, but like that’s that really is is the defining thing about successful culture and companies is how the is, how the CEOs operate. Like I once worked for a company where the CEO built himself like a separate wing. In the office with a locked door and, you know, the TV and a bathroom and whatever, like it just was really weird. I left that company.

Greg Reffner: [00:32:22] I can’t. I can’t. I can’t imagine many people stayed.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:32:26] No, unfortunately they did. And the culture was broken, you know? So yeah,

Greg Reffner: [00:32:29] Yeah, that’s that’s awesome. I often think about abstracts not going to have an office anytime soon, but I often think about like if we had an office like put me out in the open office floor plan, like put me on a desk right next to an SDR. Like, that’s like, that’s where I want to be. And that’s I think you need to be willing to step up and and show people you’re willing to walk the walk, not just talk the talk and kind of stand behind a PowerPoint presentation or a company wide email. Sometimes so. Well, Jeremy, we went way over our planned time, but this was awesome. I really I took away some big things. I loved kind of your your territory model and predictability model, which again lends itself to why you thought that would be a the the pull you ran might be a little bit different in terms of the outcome, kind of the indicators of success and the different metrics you have in terms of hiring and what you’re looking for. Learning product, team management, logistics, how to move deals. I think there’s so many takeaways. I’m kind of having a hard time wrapping my head around the three most important ones that I want to take away, other than I loved our time together, man. And this was this was very insightful. I’m super excited for our listeners who aren’t their hands on this and thank you for your time if anybody wants to get a hold of you. Get in touch with you. Learn more about sales loft. What’s the best way to do that, Jeremy?

Jeremey Donovan: [00:33:55] I’m sure the same answer you always get LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. So yeah, just connect with me on LinkedIn. I post a little, you know, fact based, analytical, actionable tidbit almost every day. So hopefully those people find those valuable, but that’s the best way.

Greg Reffner: [00:34:12] Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you for your time and enjoy your day, Jeremy.

Jeremey Donovan: [00:34:16] Thanks. A blast.